The following is the second part of a three-part series of interviews with Israel Gutman.
In addition to being an historian of the Holocaust, Israel Gutman was a leading fighter in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising; a survivor of Auschwitz (where he was a member of the Jewish underground), two other Nazi camps, and the death marches; he helped create Yad Vashem, edited the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, and was a key witness at the Eichmann trial and an important advisor to the Polish post-war government.
The interviews were conducted by Breindel Lieba Kasher. The Introduction is by Yehuda Bauer of Yad Vashem.
(You can read the first part by clicking here. Israel Gutman Interview: Part 1.)
ORAL TORAH FROM THE WARSAW GHETTO
Personal Interviews with Professor Israel Gutmanby Breindel Lieba Kasher
Introduction by Yehuda Bauer
Edited by Charles Fishman
It is a very important question you are asking
now. Before the war, the youth movement was a marginal thing in the rich
framework of Jewish society. It was a group of youngsters with an ideology. We
were a Zionist youth movement with a clear perspective. We were going to
Palestine. We would be members of a kibbutz. This was the dream. We were young. This was our goal.
The change occurred, not only during expulsions,
before that. More and more, the youth movement became involved with the
problems of the whole Jewish society. There were two reasons for this: One was
because the former leadership fled, leaving the leaders of the youth movement
with a responsibility to act. Secondly, there was this feeling that the whole
structure had collapsed. There were now but a few organizations that still
existed. They felt they must do something.
Was one objective of the leadership informing
the Jews about the intent of mass destruction?
I was not in the leadership. I knew a little
then; I know more today. First of all, there was unification, a kind of
umbrella organization, all youth movements merged into one body.
Secondly, there was the press, which was an
underground press, originally for the youth movement. This changed. The
articles, and the language and the challenges were directed toward the whole society. The whole society read the
paper. Information spread. Our influence became more and more important. The
youth organizations voiced their opinions on the Judenrat [and] informed on groups that were collaborating with the Germans — there
were such groups and individuals in the ghetto. The youth movement, little by
little, began to take responsibility and
influence the whole Jewish society
living in the ghetto.
What was the attitude of the Underground in
terms of the Jewish Police, and, in particular,
Szerynski, commandant of the Jewish police in the ghetto?
The Jewish Police were created during the time of the ghetto. Among the police were
many of high intelligence. They did not receive money. They had to keep order
in the ghetto. At first, they were very nice people who tried to help. Then
their work included sending Jews to forced labor, outside of the ghetto. There
were these provinces Jews were sent to. The Jews did not volunteer to go. They did not want to. The
Jewish Police ran around capturing Jews, forcing them to go. It was at this point that the Jewish
Police was viewed as an enemy. Some of the policemen believed they were better
than the ordinary Jews. The Germans promised them their lives. They wore
uniforms, with caps. Szerynski was not a Jew. He was of Jewish origin but he
converted to Christianity. He was, in fact, a member of the Polish police in
the pre war period, an occupation off limits to Jews. He was not the commander
of the Jewish Police during the great deportation; this was another man, Jacob
Lejkin. Lejkin was eventually killed by the Jewish fighting organization. There
was a decision within the fighting organization to kill traitors. This was
decided shortly before the uprising. The Jewish police tried to wipe out their past and no longer appear
as policemen. They felt a serious threat from the Jewish fighting organizations
that now became a strong force in the
ghetto. The Jewish Police and all collaborators feared for their lives.
I am thinking about one of the most horrible of
speeches Rumkowski made in the Łódź ghetto.
Rumkowski, head of the Judenrat, asks the Jews of Łódź ghetto to give
up their children and their old people.
Do you think, at that point, Rumkowski should have said, ‘They are coming to
take your children, your elderly; hide,
fight, resist, any way you can’?
This is the main difference between the youth
movements and the leaders. There were differences in the leaders in each
ghetto. Leaders like Gens in Vilna, Barasz in Bialystok, Rumkowski in Łódź. They believed, almost until the end, that the only recourse, in
the face of annihilation, was to keep alive as many Jews as possible. Rumkowski’s
speech was a reflection of the tragedy of the time more than the cruelty of the
person. He was not a cruel person. How a man was able to arrive at this speech
was indicative of what was happening at this time. I believe he really thought
there was a chance for him to save a part of the Jews, but he had to take such
an abnormal step of victimizing part of his society.
If the Russian soldiers, situated by the Vistula,
would have come quicker, much of the Jews still alive in the Łódź ghetto would
have been liberated and Rumkowski would have been a hero.
There were such things in Bialystok. The youth
movement confronted a similar situation in terms of the expulsion of the Jews.
They knew expulsion meant liquidation, but they hoped that the Russians would
come quickly. They decided not to start a revolt. They believed they had a
small chance to save Jews by waiting for this right moment when the Russians
would come. You see, it was also an illusion because we know that the Germans
were able to liquidate the Jews in a few days. When the Russians came closer,
the Germans did things like take full camps of Jews in Trawniki, in the
neighborhood of Lublin, and kill tens of thousands of Jews in a few days. The
same thing could have happened in Ghetto Łódź or the ghetto in
Bialystok. There was not a real chance. The real chance, of course, we can only
speak about afterward. There were survivors. I am also a survivor. How did this
happen? It happened.
Nearing the end of the war, a situation appeared
that some of the most hardened Nazis came to the conclusion that they had lost
the war. It not only made no sense to keep killing Jews, but some people, even
Himmler, thought that perhaps they could
save themselves by creating an alibi. This was why a small part of Jews
survived. You have to remember that this was such a small percentage of the
Jews. This was not a result of the policy of the Judenrat; it was a result of
the whole situation of the war, or the outcome of the war.
Were there
leaders of the Judenrat who said ‘Resist all German orders and do
anything to try and survive’?
There were, but resist, what is the meaning of
the word “resist”? You have resistance in the ghetto. The resistance in the
ghettos was completely motivated by the idea that the Jews were
prepared to die. It was a small way to feel revenge against the killers,
against the murders, but it was without any perspective for rescue. There were
other forms of resistance, like the Partisans.
The Partisans still believed that, through resistance, they had a slight
chance, a hope for rescue.
You were so young. Were you involved with
smuggling in arms?
Not personally. All the ways to get a hold of
arms were part of the Underground
organizations. It was the responsibility of one or two youth movements. Later,
the Jewish Fighting Movement became a
combination of youth movements. The whole thing of arms, this was of course the
aim of the Jewish Fighting Organization. There were people in the ghetto, on a
private basis, who bought and acquired arms, small pistols. The meaning of
arms, by today’s standards, was not the arms of the ghetto.
Preparations for an
Uprising
What did you do when there was an action and the
Germans called the Jews to the Umschlagplatz?
We were concentrated in one place. Because I had
no family, it was easier for me. For others with families, they found it
difficult to leave and go with the organizations. Abraham Gepner situated us in
a shop run under the auspices of the Germans. Gepner’s daughter was a member of
the Underground and he was
willing to hide many people.
What kind of shop was it?
It was the ostdeutsch Bau Wekstatte, a German
construction shop. In the back were the skilled workers. We, the members of the
fighting organization, were able to hide out there and live in the shop
undercover, with fake documents. We had places to live. We were on the
famous street, Mila Street, 55, 6, 8, 3, 1. During an action, we hid in the
cellars. I remember, at first, I went to the selections. I had papers. Then we
decided we would no longer participate. This was an order.
Did you have a pistol?
Yes.
It was official. The youth movement was now
armed and became a resistance movement. Is that correct?
Yes, we understood what awaited the Jews of
Poland and perhaps all the Jews of Europe. The idea was now to organize a
Jewish fighting organization. We understood that defense meant no chance of
rescue. When the leaders started to plan their strategies, it became clear that
we had to be united. The first meeting took place in ’42.
Were you at the meeting?
No, the meeting was made up of a small group of
leaders. They did not succeed in coming to an agreement. The delegates of the
Bund were against creating a Jewish Organization. They believed the Polish Jews
were a part of the Polish Underground.
If there was to be a fight, it would have to be a united one, Poles and Jews. This
is what happened. The Jewish organizations were very interested in a partnership
with the Bund because everyone wanted the support of the Polish Underground and
the Polish resistance. This was the only way to get hold of weapons and
information on what was happening with the Germans. This first meeting was a
failure. Another attempt was made with the Communists. An anti-fascist
committee was established in the ghetto with leftist organizations — Zionists
and Communists. The Communist Poles were weak. They had no support from Polish
society. The Germans arrested Communist activists in the ghetto. After a few weeks, the whole structure
collapsed. It was shortly before the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto.
The deportation began on the 22nd of July. All
the attempts to do something were in vain. We had only a few pistols. The
Germans were brutal. People were shot on the spot. The tension, the dynamic of
the expulsion, what was happening day to day, is beyond description. We had
almost no connection with each other. Every day, a part of the population, a part
of the Youth, was taken to the Umschlagplatz and then to Treblinka. Close to
the end of the deportation — I remember this well — there was a meeting with
the whole group, including the youngsters like me. There were many complaints,
many arguments. Some people said that it made no sense to plan for an uprising.
They saw no possibility for people to go into battle on the streets of the
ghetto. The organization should stop counting on the Polish Underground for
weapons. They clearly didn’t care about us. We simply had to respond with our
bare hands, with anything we had, attack the Germans. Everyone would be killed,
but this was the only chance. The elders, those with experience, were against
all this. They believed things should be done in an organized way — make an action that would be remembered, a
great Jewish uprising. One of these leaders was Arie Wilner. He was a Jewish
delegate on the Arian side. He succeeded in acquiring weapons, not too much.
They also thought the deportation would stop. Part of the Jews, around 35,000,
would remain. Wasn’t it our duty to remain alive? Between deportations, we
would organize. We saw no sense to making a desperate attempt; it would be
suicide, and nothing more.
You were 18 at that time?
Yes.
What were your thoughts about what action or
inaction to take?
I was convinced that we should wait to organize
something that would be more effective.
And when you spoke of orders not to take part in
actions, who gave the orders?
From each organization, the leadership, the
elders from before the war, gave the orders. From the Hashomer Hatzair, there
was Josef Kaplan and Shmuel Braslav and Arie Wilner. In the Dorr, there was
Zukerman, Zivia Lubetkin and Tuvia Buzikovski. In Akiva, there was Israel
Kanor. Each of these leaders made the
decisions.
During the big deportation you were in the shop?
Yes, we all were. We lived together.
What was the address of the shop?
First we were on Gensha Street. After, we moved
to Mila Street. The turning point for all the preparations was, in fact, when
Mordecai Anielewicz, who later became the commander of the Fighting Organization
and the Uprising, returned to Warsaw. He had been sent to the area of Silesia,
organizing the youth movement. At the end of the deportation, he returned. He
was the most qualified, with the ability to organize and lead. He had not been
in Warsaw during the deportation, so he was not broken from frustration and
pain. He came with some energy, confident that we would succeed. There was a great
change in the atmosphere. We felt we could do it. Weapons came into the ghetto.
Anielewicz organized small groups.
After the deportation, there was a change in
most of the people in the ghetto. Some 50,000 or 60,000 people wanted to be a part
of the Underground. As long as the deportation lasted, it was impossible to do
anything but think about what was happening, hour after hour, to think about
how to save themselves and their dear ones, but after the deportation, a period
of “normal” returned to the ghetto.
Those who survived were without families. Their pain and desire for revenge,
the feeling of this tragedy, influenced them very strongly. The slogan we used
was: “Never again!” We would fight!
Was this slogan said in Yiddish?
Yes, because even though we in the youth
movement spoke in Polish, the masses in the ghetto spoke Yiddish.
Did Mordecai Anielewicz speak in Yiddish?
No, he spoke in
Polish.
At the meeting with all the leaders, what
language was it conducted in?
It was Yiddish.
When did the deportation stop?
It was from the end of September 1942 until
January 1943. We returned to the shop. Some kind of normalcy resumed. On
January 18, 1943, a new action and deportation began. Here we started the first
act of resistance. It was implemented by small groups from the Hashomer Hatzair
on Mila Street, under the leadership of Anielewicz. It was the first
confrontation between Jews and Germans in Warsaw on the way to the Umschlagplatz.
The first Germans were killed in the ghetto.
The Germans then changed their tactics. They
lost confidence. They saw that the Jews have weapons and their lives were
threatened. This seemed to bring a sharp change in their behavior.
The last
deportation took 6 weeks. They sent 300,000 Jews to their death. The second
deportation would be the final one. There were no more than 50,000 to 60,000
Jews left alive. This second deportation
stopped after 4 or 5 days. They took out 3,500 to 4,000 Jews. Despite the killing,
we felt there was a victory for the Jews. The Polish Underground reported that
the resistance forced the Germans to retreat.
Of course, this was a mistake. The German plan
was to take out a small group, 8,000 Jews. It was not that the deportation
stopped because the Jews were defending themselves. In the ghetto, the feeling
was that our resistance stopped them and it gave us hope that perhaps we could
rescue the Jews.
Were you with Anielewicz on the 18th
of January?
No, I was not.
It must have been amazing for the Jews in the
ghetto to see the mighty conquerors could be killed.
The fact is that in those January days, it was
the first time the Jews decided not to go to the selection, not to respond to
the German order. They went into hiding. In the ghetto, there were many places
to hide, to disappear. It was difficult for the Germans to find them. What
happened in January influenced the whole Jewish population. There was no other
event like this in any other ghetto. The Jews began to believe; perhaps
resistance could be a tool to make the Germans stop the actions. Only in Warsaw
was there a partnership between the fighters and the people. Only in Warsaw was there a communal agreement
and a readiness to fight and resist. The Jewish fighting organization grew. The
different underground groups joined the fighting organization with backing from
the elders. We confiscated more weapons. The fighting groups spread throughout
the ghetto, so fighting would occur in every part of the ghetto. The people
started to build bunkers. The last months were devoted to defense and the
battle against the Germans. If they tried to make another deportation, we were
preparing ourselves for an uprising.
The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
The last deportation and the uprising of the
ghetto started the l9th of April, l943. It was the first day of Pesach, so poignant. The Jews prepared
themselves for Pesach and the meaning of Pesach. The knowledge and information
spread by messengers. I cannot tell you exactly how the Jews were situated in
the different areas of the ghetto, but the main area of the ghetto was
mobilized for the fight because all the other Jews were in bunkers. The
fighters were in their places.
And it was known that on the first day of
Pesach, April l9, something would happen?
Yes it was known. We received information from
the Poles that, on this particular day, it would start.
What were you doing?
I was in charge of a bunker for the wounded. We
kept one bunker for this. I was there with another two or three people. The
place was Franciszkanska 30. It is interesting that the first man who came
there was this Wilner that I mentioned already. He was wounded and captured by
the Germans, on the other side. Finally, he was brought to the ghetto. His foot
was wounded. He could not take part in the fighting. He was the first.
Where you up all night waiting?
I remember it very well. We were not outside.
There was not one living Jew on the streets. All the people were either in bunkers,
or in their positions, waiting. I will not tell you the story of the fighting.
It was written and described many times. In any case, there was the first real
uprising that took place in a town in Europe. It lasted until 15th
of May. It was an official battle reported by the Germans, and we have the
daily reports from the commander of the German force. He sent the description
of the battle to General Stroop. It was a daily battle with an army. The
reports from the Polish Underground were more explicit. They were used to
thinking about the Jews as a kind of population, a sort of people, who are
always submissive, who were not able to defend themselves, who were always
afraid. This act of fighting was something not only unexpected, but also
unbelievable for the Poles. Some of them wrote that perhaps a few Germans or
Russians came to the ghetto and they were the ones fighting. They could not
comprehend Jews fighting. In any case, after a few days of fighting,
face-to-face combat, the Germans started to use fire and bombs to liquidate the
ghetto. They went house to house. The people came out of the bunkers choking
from the gas. They captured the bunkers with a fight. The situation was,
thousands killed on the spot. Many who remained in the bunkers committed suicide.
Some were sent to Majdanek. I was among those who were sent to Majdanek. It was
a paradox: during the great deportation, all the people were sent to Treblinka
and killed immediately. During the April action, part of the people was sent to
a camp in which, after selection, they remained alive and worked. The
conditions in Majdanek were so terrible that there was no real chance to remain
alive for more than two months’ time. This was the maximum a human being could
survive. From Majdanek, a small part, a
few thousand, were sent to Auschwitz and another camp.
What happened to you during the battle in the
ghetto?
I was wounded in the battle. There were rumors
of a fire on Franciszkanska 30. I went to the roof with a few of my friends to
put out the fire. It was night. The Germans were never in the ghetto at night.
All of the actions took place in the day. Suddenly, a few soldiers or police
appeared in one place on the roof. We had pistols. I fired. They threw a
grenade. I was wounded around my eye. Another friend of mine was also wounded.
I went to the bunker. After a few days, the Germans captured the bunker. We
went out, everyone in a separate way. They guarded us. They took us to the Umschlagplatz.
Then they took us to Majdanek. I was with three very close friends of mine. We
had been friends for a long time. When we came to Majdanek, they separated the
men and women.
How many people were in this bunker when the
Germans came?
I cannot tell. There were some people they
brought out and killed immediately. Because I was wounded, they did not suspect
I was a fighter. The people who looked better, they killed.
So you went to Majdanek with these few friends?
Yes.
You were a fighter, a part of the uprising, one
of the Jewish warriors; were you able to hold on to this feeling?
I will tell you, as a matter of fact, I was
rescued in Majdanek only because of this. I came to Majdanek and I was not only
weak; I was ill because of the gas and the wound. They sent me to the hospital
in Majdanek.
Why did they have a hospital in Majdanek? It
seems so incongruous.
It was not a hospital. It was, in fact, a place
for people who were no longer able to work. They could rest a few days.
But that sounds so contrary.
This was the structure of the concentration
camp. There was a Polish doctor there in the hospital. He asked, “What happened to you there?” I was
afraid to tell him. He said, “We know exactly what happened in the ghetto. I
will try to help you. Don’ t be afraid.” And it was a fact that he brought me
some medicine that didn’t exist in Majdanek for the prisoners, and he rescued
me.
Majdanek was not only a camp for Jews; it was
also a camp for Poles. Officially, it was a working camp. So if somebody was
ill, it made sense to help him in some way so he could continue to work. It was
also a continuation of the liquidation of the Jews. Officially, they were
interested in the working people. They were a part of a working camp. It was a
concentration camp, but many of the people there worked for the German war
industry.
The gas chambers were for those no longer able
to work, for the elderly, for the children.
Which barrack were you in?
I was in a field called the fourth field. The
number they gave me in Majdanek, I don’t remember. It was not that way.
You mean not a tattoo, like in Auschwitz?
No, it was not this way. They gave us a small
thing from metal to wear. It had a number here [he points to his wrist].
It was impossible for anyone to say that the
Polish people of Lublin did not know what was happening in Majdanek, since
Majdanek is only twenty minutes from the center of Lublin.
Yes, of course they knew, but Majdanek was not
only a Jewish camp. It was also a Polish camp.
In this particular place, the new place where I was, it was exclusively
Jewish; but before we came, the Poles were the majority of the prisoners in
Majdanek.
Have you ever returned to Majdanek to see it
again?
I was there one time. Majdanek is very
difficult. For someone who was there, it is a shock to see it.
In Majdanek, what were you forced to do?
We had to work, but there was no work. They did
not know what to do with us. It was clear for all of us that our lives in
Majdanek, it was a matter of months. There was no food, no clothes. We were in barracks that were not made for
people, but rather for horses. What was supposed to be a place for 60 horses
held 500 people. The only objective of the work was to torture and kill the people. There was no constructive work. We
took rocks from one place to another and back again, all the day. The kapos and
block guards were so cruel, Jews among them. After some time, a German
delegation came, officers among them. They made an inspection of Majdanek. It seems they came to the conclusion that
Majdanek was not a working place. They would send those still able to work to
another place. They sent me to Auschwitz with a transport.
How many people survived Majdanek?
I don’t know. You know, at the end of November,
l943, they took all the Jews of Majdanek and the Lublin area and they killed
them, 42,000 people in one day.
How long were you in Majdanek?
I was in Majdanek for more than two months
Then you were sent to Auschwitz?
Yes.
It is a long story. From Auschwitz, I was sent
to a place called Buna. I was there for some time. I was no longer able to work. I was out of my
[mind]. I was a muselmann. They sent me from Buna again to
Auschwitz 1, the main part of the camp. There, I was sent to a hospital. It was
not a real hospital; it was a block called “ The Hospital,” in which they
concentrated people for liquidation. Every week, a German physician came and
made a selection — who could work — and who could not, was killed. And who
rescued me, again — a Pole.
Yes. He did not know anything about me; it was
by chance that when he wrote down my name, he exchanged a few words with me. He
said he was a schreiber, a man who kept the list of the prisoners. He
asked me what school I went to? Who were
my teachers? It was completely strange. The same day, he brought me a soup.
When the German physician came for his selection, I was simply not on the list.
[The Pole had taken] me off. I stayed a few weeks there, and he cared that I
came back to my more-or-less normal self.
Did you ever see him after the war?
I tried, but I could not find him after the war.
And what about the doctor in Majdanek?
This was only for one time; but the other man,
we spoke, we had relations. He cared for me so that I was able to return to [being]
a human being. I could work. Then he cared for the work I would get, better
work.
What kind of work was it?
It was a kind of factory in Auschwitz; it was
called Union. There I was among thousands of prisoners. I worked there for a
year, more than a year. I had friends. There was even resistance.
Did you find friends from Warsaw?
Not from Warsaw — from Warsaw I was the only one
— but from other places, Jews from Poland, Jews from other places. There was
also resistance there in Auschwitz.
What resistance?
The resistance was an international
organization, mutual help, even preparation for fighting, but it was not
carried out.
During the Eichmann trial you said that you
could never look in the face of a German, and when you did look, you couldn’t believe that they
took pleasure in all of the misery and they laughed when they murdered the
Jews. After all of these years, have you been able to understand how the Nazis
could have behaved so cruelly?
I will tell you; there is a difference between
knowledge and understanding. I am dealing with this history of the Holocaust
for so many decades. During this long time, I have a wide knowledge of what
happened — how the Germans organized the whole thing, who were the Germans,
what happened in every place, all the details. I can say, that the more I know,
the less I understand. How can one
understand? I do not go often to Germany. I was there one or two times. I asked
myself how it was possible that these same human beings were able to do the
things they did, but they did. They not only murdered, but many of them did it
with a kind of enthusiasm.
When you were liberated from Auschwitz, did you
go back to Warsaw?
I was not liberated in Auschwitz; I was
liberated in Mauthausen.
You went from Auschwitz to Mauthausen?
The Russians were close to Auschwitz. They
liquidated Auschwitz in January, l945. The Germans took us on a death march. We
came to Mauthausen. I was liberated in a camp close to Mauthausen.
Where did you go after you were liberated?
I did not go back to Poland. I decided,
naturally, to go to Israel. It was impossible. So I worked with the Birchah,
and close, before the establishment of Israel. I came here illegally.
I wanted to ask you one last question. We spoke
about l933, l935, and you said, well it was happening in Germany and we in
Poland, we could not really know what effects it would have on Poland. Now you
read about Heider in Austria. One out of every four Austrians voted for the
right wing party. Antisemitism seems to be coming out of the closet in Europe
again. Do you have any idea about what kind of influence it could have on us
here in Israel?
I will tell you, I believe that you cannot
compare the antisemitism today to what happened then, between the wars. The
inter-war period was the most antisemitic period in the history of the Jews in
the Diaspora, not only in Germany, but also in the majority of the countries in
Europe. And we cannot say that the
Holocaust did not influence what happened in Europe after the war. It was a shock. The Holocaust was the
holocaust of the Jews, but it was also a bitter war for the non-Jews, and they
learned something from the hatred. How people arrived at such a level as to do
what was done to the Jews — it was not only a mentality, a human vicious cruelty
against the Jews; it brought out the beast, the barbarian, in the human being.
This is what happened to the Germans. They brought antisemitism to such a state
that it became anti-human, not only in regards to Jews. It was such a force,
not only a danger for Jews but for human beings in general. After the war, there was a change, a very
substantial change in antisemitism. They understood that antisemitism was a
danger, not only for Jews, but for themselves as well. The fact that you say
Heider — but Heider was responded to immediately. After all, in no country in
Europe was a fascist regime created. One of the reasons was, perhaps, the
lesson of the Holocaust. It had its influence on the European countries.
What about the pogrom in Kielce, immediately after
the war? What about the antisemitic purges in Poland in 1968? Jewish graves are
still desecrated. Neo-Nazis are alive and thriving.
You are right, but it is still different.
I just want to say that I have been traveling to
Poland for the last 12 years. I have seen anti- semitic graffiti, swastikas on
trains, on walls, on buildings. Jewish gravestones are still being desecrated.
It seems to me that since the end of the Communist regime, when people are free
to be, both the good and the bad come out in the open.
I know the press, and I know the mentality and I
know the people, and there is a tremendous change. There are still antisemites.
Among the Poles, there is no lack of antisemitism, but the general trend is not
the same. They also suffered in the war. They paid with many lives. We cannot
forget this. We must not forget it. Of course the antisemitic trends in Poland
are very strong, but there is the intelligencia and the young people; they are
not the same.
I have one last question for you. I travel with
my camera. I go all over eastern Europe, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Slovakia, and the Ukraine, searching, looking for Jews,
survivors still living there. In your opinion, what is most important for me to
record?
The only thing that we are able to do is gather the remnants of Jewish life. There
will not be, and there should not be, a renewal of Jews in these places. Jews
lived in eastern Europe for hundreds of years. And now there is barely a trace of
our Jewish existence left. When I am in Warsaw, a city that had such a large
concentration of Jews, it is not the same Warsaw, not the same buildings, not
the same streets. From time to time, you have the same names of streets. Now there
are streets named Anielewicz and
Ringelblum, but the people do not know who Anielewicz or Ringelblum were.
What should I be looking for?
You know, the only thing that we are able to do
is gather each document, each testimony, each diary, remnants of Jewish life,
bring it together, try to; it is also not an easy task. We must educate and
make people aware.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Oral
Torah from the Warsaw Ghetto
Oh God,
It was hard
To feel
God
In the ghetto.
Jews asked
“Where is my God?”
This was the question.
No one had the answer.
Professor Israel Gutman
Yad Vashem, Jerusalem
January 9, 2007 until the end of March, 2007
Death March
The words used when speaking of the war are “Hurban, ” “ Holocaust, ” and “Shoah.”
Which word do you find most correct?
I am against this word, “Hurban,” because a hurban describes what happened in the
Land of Israel, with the destruction of the Beit Hamigdash [The Temple]. The
tragedy of the Holocaust was the attempt to liquidate the entire Jewish People,
throughout Europe. This was quite a different situation. I use the word “Shoah.”
It is our Hebrew word. “Holocaust” is an international word.
When we left off in our interview in l999, we
were at the point of your liberation. If I may, I would like to go back in
time, to ask you some questions about The Death March in Auschwitz, January,
l945. Given that you had been a prisoner
for so many years, were you able to hold onto a belief that one day you would
be liberated? Were you aware, in January, l945, that the Allies were close by?
Yes, of course. I was a part of an underground
in Auschwitz. We were a small group of Jews. I had a very dear friend, Yehuda
Laufer, a Slovak Jew, who was like a brother to me. In Auschwitz, he was an old
prisoner, and I, a new one, but our friendship was close, until the last days
of his life in Israel. Our group was made up of mostly Polish Jews. We worked
at the Union Factory in Auschwitz. A small group of women worked with this
"pulver" [gunpowder], making grenades. Little by little, they smuggled small
amounts of this powder to us, and to the crematorium in Birkenau. We received a
message from the Underground, telling us to bring this powder into camp. It was
in preparation for an uprising. The sonderkommandos successfully blew up a
crematorium.
Did you have any idea, in l945 that the war
would soon be over?
We knew what was happening in the world. We knew
what was happening at the front.
How?
In the last few months, we knew more about the
situation of the war between the German and Soviet armies. In the last days, we
heard the Soviets were very close. We believed there would be an uprising, a battle,
in Auschwitz, by the prisoners who belonged to the Underground — leftists, including Zionist Jews. We hoped
for an uprising, but it did not happen. This group went out together on the
Auschwitz Death March.
It is very difficult to give you a picture of
what the situation was. It was winter. We went, mostly on foot. Some days, we
rode on open freight wagons crowded together, without food, without anything at
all. We went in the direction of Austria, to Vienna, to Mauthausen. We marched
on the back roads. When we began the march, we were, more or less, in a better
condition because Auschwitz, in the last days, it was somehow better. We had
more to eat, we were a bit freer. We began to feel optimistic; perhaps there
was still a chance we could survive.
It is difficult to convey how we arrived at
Mauthausen. We were no longer the same people. We had been together, helping
one another. Help meant holding up someone who could no longer take a step.
Those who could not march were shot. The whole way was strewn with the dead who
were simply shot on the spot.
I do not understand how you heard news that the
war was coming to an end while you were in Auschwitz.
German prisoners, not Jews, were servants going
in and out of the living quarters of the SS, who were listening to the radio.
So they heard what was happening, and they gave the information to us. I
remember I wrote it, and I cannot remember how I had something to write with,
but I wrote down exactly what they told me. More or less, we knew what was happening.
In Majdanek, you gave up the will to live, and,
in Auschwitz, again you were a part of an underground, as you had been in
Warsaw.
It took time. The story of Auschwitz is a
separate story. I was there from August ’43 until January ’45. That was a long
time to be a prisoner. But I must say that the last months, despite that it was
a concentration camp, and it was Auschwitz, in comparison to the conditions in
Majdanek, it was easier.
During the Eichmann Trial, Abba Kovner said he
was very offended by people asking, “Why didn’t they fight back?” The miracle,
he said, was that anyone was able to resist at all. How did it happen that you
were always involved with underground activities?
I was brought into the group. As you said, I
came from Warsaw, with the belief that one must do whatever one can, if
possible. I found out about the Underground. I talked about the Warsaw
Uprising, and it became clear to the others that I would join the group.
Did everyone go on the Death March?
Everyone was forced to go, except for the
prisoners who were in a bad condition, or in the hospital. Almost all the
prisoners went.
Why did the Germans have this march? Why didn’t
they just kill everyone?
You know, they were in a situation of
collapsing. The Germans were unorganized. They had orders to take the Jewish
prisoners, and go.
But why? Why didn’t they want to murder all the
Jews who were left?
Why? They received the orders; that is why.
Their policy was no longer “normal.” It was the last chapter of time. They [had]
lost control of what was happening. Perhaps they thought it would be beneficial
for them to keep some Jews around; maybe it would help them. Perhaps they
thought it could appease the American army. We have no documentation of this,
so it may not be exactly right, but even Himmler thought in this direction.
So, everyone marched?
Yes, the whole group went. On the sides of the
road, SS soldiers stood. If someone could no longer stand on his feet, he was
immediately shot.
Did you have shoes?
Shoes, what shoes? By the way, the people in the
Underground, in the last moments, got shoes.
Some members took shoes from the sorting barracks. I even received two
pairs of shoes and gave one pair to someone. This is a very difficult story to
tell because it was, again, the beginning of a very difficult time in
Mauthausen.
Besides the shoes, did you wear any clothing
that could keep you warm?
No, nothing but the uniforms. It was very cold.
Was it snowing?
Of course snow, cold.
How long did the march take?
I don’t know how many days, perhaps ten days,
perhaps more, until we came to Mauthausen.
These last months were, perhaps, the most difficult time of all the war
years.
When you were on the march, did they let the
prisoners stop to sleep?
Sleep? Yes, outside, on the cold ground, with
nothing.
Were you given any food?
Before we went out, we received some bread,
perhaps something more along the way, but really, all this time, we were
without food, without drink.
What happened when you arrived in Mauthausen?
When we arrived, our group was no longer
together. Each of us was sent to a different place. I was sent to Viener
Neurshtadt, very close to Vienna. What was interesting is, there were no Jews
there, or perhaps there were a few, but I did not know of any. There was no
work. We had nothing to eat. I was in this place for a month, perhaps two, and
then they brought us, again on a death march, north, to Mauthausen, but this
was a camp, for Jews only. This place made Auschwitz look normal. We did not
work. It was difficult to walk ten meters. It was impossible for us to stand on
our feet, but we had the feeling that we were close to the end of the war,
until the American army came in.
What happened when the American soldiers
arrived?
When they came, I remember, some people
celebrated their freedom. Many people began to eat. Their bodies could not handle the change, and
they died. I did not eat. I was not able to be glad. I was not able to feel anything. I remember
we went out of camp to the small town. It was a few kilometers away. We could
not go without holding on to each other.
When the American soldiers came in, did the
German soldiers run away?
No, in a moment there were no more German
soldiers. We were free.
Do you remember your first thoughts at that
time?
No, I don’t.
When you went into the town, how did the townspeople
react to you?
Some of the villagers gave us food, but mostly,
we had no contact with the townspeople. I was soon taken to the hospital.
Where did you sleep, when you came to the town?
We had a place.
For years, you were a prisoner, struggling every
moment for your survival. When you were finally liberated, was it then you began
to feel the depth of pain of losing an entire family?
I knew exactly that I had no family. Not even
for a moment did I think that I would go back to Poland to look for anyone. I
knew no one was alive — no family, no close friends. Nobody remained.
So what did it feel like, these first moments of
liberation?
I was not really fully aware of what was
happening.
Can you understand how you survived all those
years of suffering?
You know, a human being in a concentration camp
had no influence, no feeling that he was able to do something to stay alive. It
was like we were not human. We existed to work, and nothing else. Until today,
I do not understand how I survived. From the millions of people, I am one of a
few who remained. I had no part in this. It happened, without any possibility
for me to influence or do anything that would help me. It happened; I survived.
What did you do after you were liberated?
After liberation, I remained in a small town
named Wells. I was there a week, maybe two. I was still not able to eat. I was
sent to what had been the German Army Hospital. One day, a friend came to tell
me there were a few soldiers from the Israeli Brigade who were connected to the
British Army in Austria. They were coming from Italy with a plan to take us
back with them. From Italy, we would go
to Israel. Immediately, I decided, I am going. I got up from my bed and left,
taking nothing but the clothes on my back.
Where did you go in Italy?
Modena, a place filled with Jews. I was sent
from Modena to the South of Italy, to an area called Bari. My friends and I
began creating a kibbutz. This was the beginning of my involvement in illegal
Aliya [smuggling people into Israel]. I remained in the area of Bari until the
time close to the beginning of the state of Israel. When it was clear to me
that there would be a war in Israel, I went and joined a kibbutz. I was a
member of the kibbutz more than 20 years.
And then Israel says:
This will be enough for now. You know, it is so
hard to think back to this time, to all those people I loved, and lost.
The first interview, January 9, 2007 is over.
Breindel Lieber Kasher was born in New York City and has lived more than half her life in Israel. She is a documentary film-maker and published poet. Her work has been translated into Hebrew, Polish and German and can be found in Midstream, Prism: An Interdisciplinary Journal for Holocaust Educators, 21st Century Journal, Cyclamens and Swords, International Poetry Journal, Poets West, Seventh Quarry, and Palabras. She has twice been a winner of the Reuben Rose Prize from Voices Israel.
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